Talk:Dual Wield
Raider's Boomerang Tested Raider's Boomerang Dual Wield, establishing a value of 3% - 10 rounds of dual-wielding Warp Cudgels as THF/BLU with no Dual Wield gear other than the boomerang gave 61 TP, yielding a result of either 3% or 4%. 10 rounds as THF/NIN with the same equipment yielded 58 TP, eliminating the possibility of 4%, leaving only the 3%. --Nyosan 07:41, November 13, 2010 (UTC) THF Dual Wield It's DW1, not DW2. Tested outside on level 0 mobs one shotting with first a single 201 delay dagger, then two 201 delay daggers. 5, 11, 16, 22, 27, 33, 38, 44, 49, 55 so 5.5 TP per strike with one 201 delay dagger. 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35, 40, 45, 50 with two 201 delay daggers. No mobs hit me, and I wore nothing during the test barring the weapons. .5 TP less dual wielding, which is 10% reduction, DW1. Damage Types Can anyone confirm this? When using Dual Wield, the damage type of each weapon is calculated seperately. As in, if you're using a slashing and a piercing sword, on a shashing resistant mob, the hits related to the slashing weapon will be reduced, while hits related to the piercing weapon will be at full damage. Fairly sure this is the case from what I remember of a Limbus run (some hits would do 0, some would do high damage), and a friend just mentioned it while dualwielding Axe/Sword, but it's not mentioned on the page here, so I thought I'd confirm it before updating. --Solarus 23:30, 1 June 2009 (UTC) Alternate DW numbers Found on FFXIOnline: The ninja dual wield trait is considered by many to be 'delay reduction' on melee weapons. If it was really haste in the normal sense, our ninjitsu recast timers would get lower as we leveled up, but they dont. Haste from spells or items cuts ninjitsu recast time down in addition to melee speed which confuses things. *DualWield I = .10 (level 10) *DualWield II = .15 (level 25) * DualWield III = .25 (level 45) * DualWield IV = .35 (level 65) * AF body = .05 * AF2 Legs = .05 * Supponomimi Earring= .05 * Sarashi = .01 (only works if subbing ninja and level 30+) Add the value from the highest DualWield trait you have in addition to the other items listed, then add 1.0 - this is your delay modifier. Add the delay of your two weapons together and divide it by the delay modifier. This should give you the delay between each round of attacks. Note: Each weapon delay when modified by this calculation is rumored to have a floor value of 150delay when hasted. It may seem like you attack faster than that, but its your double attack trait from /war firing off most likely, causing you to swing nonstop. (every .75 seconds if you get a run of double attacks) To use myself as reference, level 71 ninja *Sairen(238 delay) + Hototogisu(185 delay) = 423 No special gear, just Dual Wield IV gives me a 1.35 modifier. * 423/1.35 = 313.3 = 3.133 seconds between attack rounds If haste gear is applied in the same fashion as the modifiers in the above table for someone at level 75: * Dual Wield IV = .35 * Panzer Mask = .02 * Fuma Sune-ate = .03 * Byakko legs = .05 * AF body = .01 * Supponomimi Earring= .05 * Modifier = 1.51 * 423/1.51 = 2.8 seconds between attack rounds. Piling on the haste equipment cuts .3 seconds off the wait between attack rounds - not bad. Thats adds up to nearly 2 more attack rounds per minute. If double attack fired off on those extra melee rounds for each hand both times I could get up to an additional 40%tp per minute : with some luck of course The original weapon setup drops to a low enough level that its very apparent a speed cap of some sort must come into play. This is why I think most highlevel katanas dont get really low delays any longer(sub 200 delay), when you hit 75 and pile on haste and dual wield enhancers, just about anything you equip is going to be fast. Multiplying by a fractional haste modifier (*.45 instead of /1.55) gives 423*.49 = 207.27 = 2.1 seconds between each combat round which seems way too fast. That would mean a quad attack round (double attack from /war activates twice) would mean 1 katana swing per .52 seconds. The above is, in a word, wrong. Delay -> Real time wait is calculated as Delay/60, not Delay/100. Therefore that 207.27 delay is 3.45 seconds between attack rounds, which is perfectly normal. This also goes to show that it is a delay reduction and not an attack rate increase. 50% Haste halves your delay, which in turn doubles how many attacks you get in. It does not increase the amount of attacks by 50% and therefore reduce delay by 33%. Wormania 15:21, 1 May 2007 (EDT) Dual Wield on weapon skills? I know that an extra hit is applied to weapon skills but does the extra hit take in account to modifiers and damage multipliers? The extra hit on weapon skills seems to be just a "regular hit". When I use only one Katana for Blade: Rin(one hit only), it does about 200 damage to a monster. If I dual wield two katanas, it only does slightly more damage it seems. On the other hand, when I use Blade: Rin and double attack kicks in, the damage nearly doubles to something like 350 or something. So I think the extra hit from dual wield on weapon skills is only a "regular" hit. Petco 03:14, 11 July 2007 (CDT) Effect on TP Dual Wield also adjusts your TP gain to match your new delay: *A 276-delay axe normally gives 7.2 TP per hit. *Two of them with Dual Wield II give 6.2 TP per hit (7.2/1.15). So, slow weapons like axes don't build TP any faster with Dual Wield II; they attack faster, but get less TP, so TP per second is the same. Fast weapons like daggers get TP faster with Dual Wield II because TP per hit doesn't go below 5 even when delay goes below 180. --Valyana 16:27, 8 Feb 2006 (PST) :Just a note: the 5% TP floor was removed in the 04/18/2006 update, so dual wield no longer gives a TP advantage with daggers. --Fhathead 16:22, 6 September 2006 (EDT) Actually, it does still give a TP advantage for fast weapons, it just isn't as big: * A THF single wielding Sirocco Kukri (150 delay): ** 5+((150-180)*1.5)/180=4.75 TP/hit. ** 60/150=0.4 hits/sec ** 0.4*4.75 = 1.9 TP/sec * Dual wielding Sirocco and Hornetneedle (also 150 delay) with Suppanomimi, so 20% lower delay: ** 5+((120-180)*1.5)/180=4.25 TP/hit. ** 60/120=0.5 hits/sec ** 0.5*4.25=2.125 TP/sec You can see why there's still this advantage if you look at the TP vs. delay graph. --Valyana 17:46, 3 July 2007 (CDT) Dual Wield I I just confirmed that Dual Wield I gives a 10% reduction in delay. I took my BST/NIN to Phomiuna Aqueducts, with my Barbaroi Axe and a Combat Caster's Axe, which normally give 7.5 and 7.3 TP per hit, respectively, or average 7.4 TP. Dual Wielded, they gave 13, 26, 40, 53, 67 TP, or 6.7TP per hit. 6.7 = 7.4/1.1, so Dual Wield I reduces delay (and TP) by 10%. I'm going to go ahead and change all of the values on the main page to the ones in the ffxionline post I quoted above, though I can't verify the DW3/4 values because my NIN is only 37. --Valyana 19:40, 8 Feb 2006 (PST) The stats of both weapons equiped are added to your character so 2 wands that give +8 int and mnd for example would give your character +16 int and mnd. But not all effects are added, like how Enhancing Sword adds +5 to en-spell damage. The +5 damage is only added to the Enhancing sword and not the other weapon equiped with dual wield. I was dissapointed to find this out because I was hoping the +5 damage would go over to Joyeuse. This is probably because the +5 damage is specifically assigned to the sword and not the character like the stats. Like having Joyeuse equiped wouldn't mean that your other weapon would occasionally attack twice. I'm assuming though that the latent effect on Enhancing sword(attack+16 accuracy+8) would work with the secondary weapon because those stats are probably applied to the character. Hidden Effects? Are you serious? Despite the description, the trait itself does not allow users to equip two weapons at once, it merely reduces the combined delay. The ability to equip a weapon in the sub slot is an unnamed hidden trait gained at the same level as the Dual Wield trait. (Similar to how a job like RDM can equip a H2H weapon, but can only attack twice a round if a job (MNK, PUP, etc) with the unnamed hidden trait is used as a subjob.) '' This is some kind of joke, right? We're supposed to believe that there is a trait to hold two weapons only it's hidden, and SE accidentally wrote the description of this ability on the Dual Wield ability, which is named wrong because it speeds up attack speed? I'm getting confused just trying to type this out. Is it remotely possible that, I don't know, that Dual Wield is correct and that there are multiple hidden traits to speed up weapon delay? I don't recall seeing Dual Wield 2 listed on my job traits list. Let's get some Occam's Razor going on in here, and accept that Dual Wield does exactly what it's supposed to, and that the only hidden effects going on with Ninja are the delay-reduction ones. Making up that a description is wrong and applied to an invisible trait, which is ACTUALLY what lets you hold two weapons is ridiculous. Also ridiculous is the H2H comment. Look at the jobs that can attack twice, and compare that to list of jobs that have native H2H skill. There's no reason to assume that there are magical hidden abilities in play when the jobs that do punch twice have skill. I'm going to leave this idle for a bit, but if there's nothing comes forward to defend these ridiculous claims, I'd like to edit that part out. Lyall 23:07, January 4, 2010 (UTC) Overall, I'd agree with you. I'd like to know where this piece of information was sourced from. The effects of hidden traits are readily visible for the most part, but there are no visible traits except holding two weapons at once. However, I disagree with the large paragraph above. Yes, your Job Traits won't list higher tiers of skills (as a 75 Paladin, I don't see Defense Bonus, Defense Bonus II, Defense Bonus III, and Defense Bonus IV; the numerals are just written done here so we can differentiate the tiers). Yet, they are there. Now, it wouldn't be the first time SE didn't write the description correct, bt usually we can pick those errors out because they are horribly written. Dual Wield isn't: "Allows you to equip two weapons." That's really clear. Perhaps the statement was written wrong. It's likely that Dual Wield one grants you the ability to wield two weapons with some skill (thus the delay decrease); Dual Wield II is an upgraded form, through which you are now able to wield two weapons as before but with a greater reduction in delay....etc. There's nothing that says the delay reduction isn't a part of "being able to equip two weapons at once". I know I would, for certain, want to get very dexterious at using two weapons at once. Gixander 06:16, January 20, 2010 (UTC) In my personal opinion, whether there is a hidden trait that grants the ability to wield 2 weapons, or it is simply part of Dual Wield's effects, doesn't matter. The fact is, as a NIN lvl 10 (subbed or main) you gain the ability to use 2 weapons with a decreased delay. A "hidden" trait or part of the visible one, the effects are the same. I see no grounds to base the "hidden" trait on, but either way you look at it, it seems to me like the "hidden" trait is is in direct conjunction with dual wield anyway, making them 2 parts of a whole (the way Dual Wield is always thought of anyway - the ability to use 2 weapons with a decreased delay.) It almost seems like two ways of describing the same thing. Shalidar 17:35, February 23, 2010 (UTC) I don't find the idea of the Ability to Wield 2 weapons a hidden trait too farfetched, seeing as the additional levels of Dual wield are hidden, and the stuff that "Enhances Dual Wield" don't grant dual wield, where every other "Enhances X Job trait" will. This seems to be the only logical answer. Orenwald 01:22, June 15, 2010 (UTC) Go out as a BLU/ANY without Dual Wield, then set the spells for Dual Wield. Now test, can you equip 2 weapons? Do you have a delay reduction? If the answer is yes to both, tada, one ability. This is because no spell combination can give more than 1 job trait. Storme 05:24, June 30, 2010 (UTC) That argument isn't very good because SEI could have made it so equipping both spells gives you the visible trait and the hidden one. They wrote the game, it wouldn't be that hard, especially if it really functions with a hidden job trait. Orenwald 12:52, September 20, 2010 (UTC) DW for DNC Well I've done some testing obtained 225 TP in 40 hits without any haste and enhance dual wield using a pair of dakini (195 delay) and store TP 21. Then I calculated the supposed TP obtained for each tier of DW and got the following results: DW1: 240 DW2: 236 DW3: 228 DW4: 224 So considering that it's very close to DW4 I've added DNC on DW4 with a verif, so if anyone would please either perform their own test or simply double check my expected result please do so. --Delarius 05:55, June 22, 2010 (UTC) Who ever keeps adding a level to DW for DNC, please stop until you have proof.Shadowhusky 08:22, June 22, 2010 (UTC)Shadowhusky Tested as 45DNC/22MNK with Federation Kukri(delay: 182) and Mercenary's Knife(delay: 190). With no DW % added on, the average should be 186 delay. Gained 96 TP from exactly 20 hits, so 4.8 TP per hit. This puts the reduced delay down to somewhere in the 156-167 range, or a 10.21%-16.13% delay reduction. Unfortunately, even though this looks like it has to be Dual Wield II (15%), it's still possible that it's DW1(10%) due to the granularity of delay (186*0.9 = 167.4 = 167 -> 4.8 TP). This does mean, however, that DW3 isn't obtained until later, as that would decrease it to 4.6 TP/hit. Also, that wasn't me adding the level, but I'm putting in 46+ for DW3 now. --Mmew 08:37, June 22, 2010 (UTC) Tested again without all the random modifier (DNC76/BLM38) naked with 3 different set of weapons. Done with 10 hit on lvl 0 mobs to avoid getting hit and to get the absolute TP per hit including trunking. Final Result, it's DW3, we still need someone to perform the test at level 80 before we can confirm if it is obtainable. Result were as follow for 10 hit BTW: Dakini 2x (195 average delay) : 47 -- BK+1 + Joytoy (212.5 average) : 48 -- Joytoy + Warp Cudgel (244 average) : 50. Feel free to perform the calculation from my results if you doubt. --Delarius 21:35, June 22, 2010 (UTC) Just because you have DW3 at level 76 does not mean that it is '''obtained' at level 76. The article is supposed to list the level that they are obtained at, so putting "~76" for that field is misleading and inaccurate. What's more is that you deleted the lower bound, which was accurate as a lower bound. Please consider the nature of testing and research before you make such assumptions. And to whoever is putting test results (conflicting nonetheless) on the main article page, those belong on the talk page, so I moved them. --Mmew 22:07, June 22, 2010 (UTC) "*Confirmed DNC Reicieves Dualwield IV at level 75. only Dual wield 3 is active at 74 190 186 Delay daggers at 76DNC is 22 hits to get over 100 TP, at 4.6 per hit, that is Dual Wield 3." Well I just removed the DNC from DW4 cause my second batch of test proved we didn'T get it at 76 till it is tested at lvl 80 I haven't touched the the bounds for DW3. (though I should have, that ~76 was indeed misleading) Somehow with the capped zone gone I think it'll be hard to figure out the Tiers, My theory however is that we might get 1 every 25 levels (meaning 45 for DW2 and 70 for DW3) ATM it fits all the results XD. Not putting any numbers on main page till we get more result however. --Delarius 22:32, June 22, 2010 (UTC) Tests at Alla show that DNC has DW3 at 75. Tests show we obtain DW2 before 37. No information regarding potential DWIV at 80, however. Dual Wield 2/3 Levels for DNC I'm very dubious about the idea that DNC gets Dw2 at 21 (1 level after they learn DW1), and learns DW2 and DW3 before Nin, I have tried 76THF/38DNC and noted no appreciable increase in speed to suggest DW3. --Lukaryu 17:39, June 24, 2010 (UTC) :The only reason I can think he made that edit was because he thought someone meant "Starting at level 21 and ending at level 37, you have dual wield 2 as dancer." and decided that the -37 was unclear (as was the other one dual wield 3), so he took it out. Or something to that effect. If he'd been reading the discussion page, as anyone who spots an unusual and possibly confusing piece of information (most especially directly after an update) should do. Aok1313 22:48, June 24, 2010 (UTC) Latest test on allah shows that at 46 DNC still got DW2, and to answer to User:Lukaryu, check for attack speed is a very bad way to gauge DW, best way it to get TP gain (10 hit to do so since TP is truncated to first decimal) and then calculate expected TP per hit with each DW level with current weapons...--Delarius 21:25, June 25, 2010 (UTC) Oh, don't get me wrong, I wouldn't consider me, or anyone saying 'it felt faster' as any form of proof XD I'm just saying the addition of DW3 would be visibly noticable to anyone familiar with their attack speed with DW2, I did also check my tp return in that situation, and noted no difference on subbing /nin. (ie DW2) Lukaryu 12:00, June 26, 2010 (UTC) The capped zones may be gone, however I think we could probably use level sync to test it systematically (although I'm sure finding 65 people at each level could be exhausting, to say the least). There is also Diorama/Ballista/Brenner if people want to go for a rougher level range estimate, and there would be considerably less risk involved in a PvP area. -- Javert93 11:18, 26 June, 2010 (UTC) Just tested it with my gimped dnc sub; War75/Dnc32 and War75/Nin37; using Horrent Mace/Joyeuse, no Store TP gear. After 10 hits on TW wild rabbits in East Ronf: /dnc: 67 TP, /nin: 64 TP. So dnc doesn't get DW2 at level 32. It's probably 35, I'll check and make sure if no one else does, when my dnc gets 35. Theytak 18:24, June 26, 2010 (UTC) Looks like DNC gets Dual Wield IV at 80 (if not sooner). Using Azoth+Adder(411 delay total) on level 1 mobs, 20 swings gave 92 TP. Expected return for DW3: 5+ ((411 * .75)/2 - 180 ) * 1.5 / 180 = 4.78 (floored to 4.7) TP per hit, 94 TP expected after 20 swings Expected return for DW4: 5+ ((411 * .7)/2 - 180 ) * 1.5 / 180 = 4.69 (floored to 4.6) TP per hit, 92 TP expected after 20 swings Ayria 05:53, June 27, 2010 (UTC) Latest result from a RDM 80 on allah shows that DNC don't have DW2 at 39 but have DW2 at 40, so with the confirmed DW4 at 80 and DW 1 at 20 it's fair to assume DNC gets and upgrade every 20 levels --Delarius 21:32, June 29, 2010 (UTC) DW for Thief Isn't it bad form to add stuff about the next update before the update arrives?Orenwald 03:30, August 29, 2010 (UTC)